Update: This post continues to draw traffic. If you are really interested, I think my concerns about the culture of Catholic-Mommy bloggers come out more clearly at this follow-up post.
For the second time, Simcha Fisher has decided to be critical of The Art of Manliness. I noticed because I have both sites in my Blog List. I'm not an unconditional fan of either. But I found the attack helped focus some things have been bothering me about arguments I have been seeing in the Catholic-Mommy blogosphere for a while now.
I don't think either site is perfect but I have to say Fisher's arguments in both these posts just don't come off and I think they don't come off because there is no substance behind them. The first time she commented, back in June, she said something that is just wrongheaded:
The same is true of manliness and womanliness. If someone thinks that all it takes is the requisite chromosomes, we should be suspicious of anything a person with that attitude has to say about virtue.
The suspicions that first post raised in me were confirmed by Fisher's column today which takes issue with a three-year-old Art of Manliness piece about making sure about the woman you are thinking of marrying. Again, I don't think the original A of M post was perfect but I think Fisher's response is just wheel spinning.
The title tells us a lot, "Marriage isn't for perfect people". That must have them scratching their heads over at A of M because they never said it was. More to the point, there is something a little ridiculous in someone reading the piece and thinking it requires perfection. Every thing he says is carefully qualified.
Quite frankly, Fisher's piece makes me think of those passive aggressive tricks that teenagers pull when they know they are in the wrong but have no intention of changing. Some adult makes a perfectly reasonable suggestion and the 17 year old responds with, "You expect me to be perfect" and stomps their little foot and pouts.
She could and should do better.
UPDATE: I've given a fuller account of my views on picking a marriage partner here.
Note about the comments. We had a troll come in on this post and I subsequently removed all of his comments and some of my responses. That is why the comments thread below makes no sense.
For the second time, Simcha Fisher has decided to be critical of The Art of Manliness. I noticed because I have both sites in my Blog List. I'm not an unconditional fan of either. But I found the attack helped focus some things have been bothering me about arguments I have been seeing in the Catholic-Mommy blogosphere for a while now.
I don't think either site is perfect but I have to say Fisher's arguments in both these posts just don't come off and I think they don't come off because there is no substance behind them. The first time she commented, back in June, she said something that is just wrongheaded:
I’m not very familiar with this website, The Art of Manliness; but I’ve always felt that one of the last manly things a man can do is to talk about manliness. Either you is a man, or you ain’t. I don’t really think it’s the kind of thing you can learn.To the contrary, being a man, or being a woman for that matter, is something you have to learn. Being either is, to steal MacIntyre's example, is like being a sea captain: the fact that you are one requires you to aim for a certain level of competence at it. If you got on board a ship and the captain said, "Yeah I got my papers; what more do you want?" your quite reasonable response would be to say, "Listen I'll take the next boat".
The same is true of manliness and womanliness. If someone thinks that all it takes is the requisite chromosomes, we should be suspicious of anything a person with that attitude has to say about virtue.
The suspicions that first post raised in me were confirmed by Fisher's column today which takes issue with a three-year-old Art of Manliness piece about making sure about the woman you are thinking of marrying. Again, I don't think the original A of M post was perfect but I think Fisher's response is just wheel spinning.
The title tells us a lot, "Marriage isn't for perfect people". That must have them scratching their heads over at A of M because they never said it was. More to the point, there is something a little ridiculous in someone reading the piece and thinking it requires perfection. Every thing he says is carefully qualified.
Quite frankly, Fisher's piece makes me think of those passive aggressive tricks that teenagers pull when they know they are in the wrong but have no intention of changing. Some adult makes a perfectly reasonable suggestion and the 17 year old responds with, "You expect me to be perfect" and stomps their little foot and pouts.
She could and should do better.
UPDATE: I've given a fuller account of my views on picking a marriage partner here.
Note about the comments. We had a troll come in on this post and I subsequently removed all of his comments and some of my responses. That is why the comments thread below makes no sense.
You really shouldn't have cluttered up the comments DF. It was fine the way it was. Better even.
ReplyDeleteNow that you've started, will you return to teach us more about humility? I can always use a good lesson in humility, even if Jules can't. If not, perhaps Simcha could help? Her thoughts are more and more humble each and every day, and she will likely soon be infallible on the subject as she presently is in so many others.
I think I'll close the comments on this one.
ReplyDeleteAmong other things, I am less and less certain the person calling himself "Damien Fisher" here really is who he says he is. His last response was such a complete non sequitur that I am beginning to suspect that I've been the victim of classic Internet troll who is just interested in stoking the fire.
In any case, this subject has been exhausted.
Yup, whoever he is, he is a troll. His last comment (on another post) just confirmed it. It's classic troll behaviour in that he ignores any responses and then tosses in some gratuitous insult that is meant to provoke a response. I also checked and he only created his Blogger identity at the time his first comment appeared so he could troll here.
ReplyDeleteI'm deleting all his comments.