... about my views regarding judging whether someone is a solid marriage partner:
1. The relationship goes smoothly from the beginning.
Having been involved with marriage prep courses for a decade, one of the things that always struck me was how often the body language of some couples at the marriage prep sessions told us that they were in trouble before they began. The point that Brett & Kate McKay begin with is rock solid. How you get a long before marriage is a very good guide to how you'll get along in marriage.
One thing we always make a point of saying to couples considering marriage: "Everyone tells you you'll fight, what they don't tell you is that you'll fight about the same damn things over and over again." If it's a sore point now, it will still be a sore point ten years from now.
2. She gets along well with your family and friends.
After carefully qualifying what they are saying here, the McKay's make an absolutely essential point:
I'd also add here a point I've made before: you also want to note her attitudes towards men in general. You do not want to marry the woman who says, "Most men are jerks but you're different". If she is always saying negative things about men, or if she spews bile when discussing her ex-boyfriends, she probably isn't capable of having a satisfactory relationship with a man and you are one. (And yes, the same principle applies the other way in judging a man's fitness for marriage.)
3. There is nothing major you want to change about her.
4. She’s your best friend.
This is where I most strongly disagree. Of course you will be best friends but friendship is too easy to lie to yourself about. If we honestly consider our various friendships over the years, most of us will have to admit that some of our "best friends" have been real duds.
What you are looking for is a partner. A better question is, could I run a business with this person?
A friend of mine once told me about a custom she saw in a town in Germany where she was posted. The night before the wedding there was a big party and all the guests brought some dishware they had around the house. As they left the party, each guest smashed their contributions around the house. As Barb explained, it wasn't just a gesture. People had brought boxes full of things to smash. There was broken crockery several inches deep in some rooms. After all the guests, had left, the couple had to clean the entire house together before they were allowed to get married.
Now, I'm not recommending actually doing anything like that. But the principle is a good one: what you need is a good partner and the way the two of you work together to handle various challenges and crises is a better marker for how good a partner you both are for one another than being best friends is.
5. The thought of marrying her doesn’t scare you in the least.
I'd specify a bit: the thought of marrying her shouldn't scare you. Having some doubts about yourself is normal and healthy. The morning of my wedding, I walked from back and forth across the front of the church over and over again and every time I went by Saint Anne, I prayed for help.
But the MacKays' main point was to say that you should not have any doubts about the person you are marrying. As they say, if you have some nagging doubt, look into it.
One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't push a friend of mine to examine his doubts more closely. I was the best man at his wedding and the priest put the two of us into a room just outside the sanctuary about a half hour before the event. As the priest was leaving, he jokingly said to me, "You're supposed to try and talk him out of it." After the door closed, my friend said, also in a joking tone, "Go ahead". As he said it, I could hear something in his voice. But I thought, "It's the morning of the wedding, you can't push him." I won't go into the details but I should have pushed him on it.
An additional point of my own:
MacKay quotes his father-in-law:
I think there is no attitude more likely to be fatal to marriage than thinking that you have to marry this person, that they are the only only for you or that they complete you or any other such romantic stuff. As we like to remind couples at marriage prep, if you do everything right this will end with one of you comforting the other until death. Death is part of the marriage deal. If you really believe you can't live without this person, your vow will be a lie.
You say you don't agree with AoM. Why not? Perhaps you have some insight to offer? Perhaps you have a third way between AoM and Simcha's that you are dying to share?Well, I should say that I don't disagree with the Art of Manliness post. And I see, checking on my original post, that I never said I did. I said I didn't think it was perfect (and neither will this be). I think the A of M post says some good stuff, some of which could be expanded on and some of which can be challenged. I can't say that for the Simcha Fisher's column. Anyway, I'll go through the Art of Manliness points (which they, by the way, were very careful to call "guidelines" and not "rules") and add some comments of my own.
1. The relationship goes smoothly from the beginning.
Having been involved with marriage prep courses for a decade, one of the things that always struck me was how often the body language of some couples at the marriage prep sessions told us that they were in trouble before they began. The point that Brett & Kate McKay begin with is rock solid. How you get a long before marriage is a very good guide to how you'll get along in marriage.
One thing we always make a point of saying to couples considering marriage: "Everyone tells you you'll fight, what they don't tell you is that you'll fight about the same damn things over and over again." If it's a sore point now, it will still be a sore point ten years from now.
I’m not saying that men in such volatile relationships should not get hitched. But the volatility will inevitably continue into the marriage. Whether that volatility is acceptable is up to each individual man and their sense of the strength of that relationship.That is a very good point and worth heeding.
2. She gets along well with your family and friends.
After carefully qualifying what they are saying here, the McKay's make an absolutely essential point:
Think about it-your family raised you and made you who you are, and you picked your friends based on your common interests and values. If she doesn’t like them and they don’t like her, then it may mean you are not seeing something important about your girlfriend that they see. ... If you are sure of your relationship, be confident in moving forward with it. But it is wise to seek honest feedback from others.Absolutely. And I'd add this: you are a lot more like your parents than you realize. If your girlfriend can't get along with them, that is a powerful hint that she may not really understand you. It need not, as the MacKays say, be fatal, but it should give you pause. Sit down and think carefully about the context that your relationship has taken place in. If your relationship until now has existed largely in isolation from your family and friends, that is not a good sign.
I'd also add here a point I've made before: you also want to note her attitudes towards men in general. You do not want to marry the woman who says, "Most men are jerks but you're different". If she is always saying negative things about men, or if she spews bile when discussing her ex-boyfriends, she probably isn't capable of having a satisfactory relationship with a man and you are one. (And yes, the same principle applies the other way in judging a man's fitness for marriage.)
3. There is nothing major you want to change about her.
... if there is something truly significant about your girlfriend that you wish she would change, then that is a red flag. In the initial stages of a relationship, when your brain is bathed with love chemicals, you may be willing to overlook the flaw or even find it strangely endearing. But after several years, when the love chemicals have ebbed, this flaw may begin to grate on your soul. Remember, people seldom change, and marriage won’t make her change either. If there’s something about your girlfriend that you know deep down you can’t live with, than it’s time to move on. You’re wasting both of your times.I can't improve on that.
4. She’s your best friend.
This is where I most strongly disagree. Of course you will be best friends but friendship is too easy to lie to yourself about. If we honestly consider our various friendships over the years, most of us will have to admit that some of our "best friends" have been real duds.
What you are looking for is a partner. A better question is, could I run a business with this person?
A friend of mine once told me about a custom she saw in a town in Germany where she was posted. The night before the wedding there was a big party and all the guests brought some dishware they had around the house. As they left the party, each guest smashed their contributions around the house. As Barb explained, it wasn't just a gesture. People had brought boxes full of things to smash. There was broken crockery several inches deep in some rooms. After all the guests, had left, the couple had to clean the entire house together before they were allowed to get married.
Now, I'm not recommending actually doing anything like that. But the principle is a good one: what you need is a good partner and the way the two of you work together to handle various challenges and crises is a better marker for how good a partner you both are for one another than being best friends is.
5. The thought of marrying her doesn’t scare you in the least.
I'd specify a bit: the thought of marrying her shouldn't scare you. Having some doubts about yourself is normal and healthy. The morning of my wedding, I walked from back and forth across the front of the church over and over again and every time I went by Saint Anne, I prayed for help.
But the MacKays' main point was to say that you should not have any doubts about the person you are marrying. As they say, if you have some nagging doubt, look into it.
One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't push a friend of mine to examine his doubts more closely. I was the best man at his wedding and the priest put the two of us into a room just outside the sanctuary about a half hour before the event. As the priest was leaving, he jokingly said to me, "You're supposed to try and talk him out of it." After the door closed, my friend said, also in a joking tone, "Go ahead". As he said it, I could hear something in his voice. But I thought, "It's the morning of the wedding, you can't push him." I won't go into the details but I should have pushed him on it.
An additional point of my own:
MacKay quotes his father-in-law:
At my wedding my father-in-law said, “Marriage is not about finding a person you can live with, it’s about finding the person you can’t live without.”I can't fault a man for crediting his father in law with wisdom, but that is nonsense. There are probably lots of people in this world that you could marry successfully.
I think there is no attitude more likely to be fatal to marriage than thinking that you have to marry this person, that they are the only only for you or that they complete you or any other such romantic stuff. As we like to remind couples at marriage prep, if you do everything right this will end with one of you comforting the other until death. Death is part of the marriage deal. If you really believe you can't live without this person, your vow will be a lie.
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