"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing." Galatians 2:21In one of the comments, BobinCT writes:
"I don't think God excommunicates anyone, formally or informally, its a human construct."That must be right. That is if we could get the right sense of it. I saw an old Irish priest, right out of central casting, give a sermon once. He said, "I'm going to give you a visual impression of sin. Okay, you're God and I'm the sinner." Then he turned his back on us.
And that is the sense that in which "excommunication" makes sense. We excommunicate ourselves. OTOH, We can always trust God in his promise that he is loving and forgiving.
But then I have questions:
At some point there is a judgment though? That is, there is a point when it's too late to turn back, presumably after our death.
What is the role of communion between peoples especially if we believe that God means to do his work through us?
What is the role of the church? If Christian churches are just things we made, that is one thing. But if Jesus established a church, meaning to do His work through that church that would change the equation.
This last is a difficult question for Catholics these days. When I was a teenager I always hated the expression "Holy Mother Church" because any time it came from a teacher, parent or member of the clergy it was always the preface to an answer that really meant, "You don't have the right to ask that question." Or, to put it in current terms, "Shut up, he explained."
The Catholic church—my church—has received a valuable corrective for this sort of arrogance in the sex abuse scandal. That is a corrective in the same sense that being killed by a bear would be a valuable corrective for someone who didn't heed warnings about not feeding wild animals.
Jules, you raise many good points. I agree with most of your assessment of excommunication, but that's not what the Church means when it refers to it. The Church means excommunication from the Church not from God, which is not one and the same. The Church cannot say that someone is excommunicated from God because the Church cannot know God's mind or any individual's relationship with God at any given time. So yes, its possible for people to excommunicate themselves from God in the final analysis, but I don't believe that God ever turns His back on anyone, people can turn their backs on God.
ReplyDeleteThe other point you make is the relationship between individuals and the Church and what the Church is. IMHO, what Jesus meant when he said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church" (assuming its authentic and not added later on to increase the power of the papacy after the Church had become part of the Roman Imperial Government) Jesus was referring to those who would follow Him to carry on His work united by the bond of Love. I do not believe he was referring to the institution it has evolved into, bound by laws and strictures that have nothing whatever to do with anything Jesus actually said, housed in opulent edifices where men wear ermine cloaks and Prada pumps. WE ARE THE CHURCH, you and me, and those who on a daily basis minister just by being present to the poor, the broken-hearted, take care of elderly parents or children with Downs Syndrome, or struggle with their sexuality. And find joy in seeing a sunset, or experiencing a quiet snowfall, or hearing "I Know That My Redeemer Liveth" sung well. You are right that the sex abuse scandals has provided the institutional Church with a long overdue corrective to its arrogance, but there is still a long way to go.
Jules, check out www.enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com, the posts for June 11 and June 12 are amazing. Talk about blaming the victim.
ReplyDeleteJules, have you read "The Shack" by Wm. Paul Young? If you have I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, if you haven't I highly recommend it.
ReplyDeleteI had not heard of it before you mentioned it here. That is not surprising as there are a lot of things I have not heard of. I'll look it up when I have the chance.
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