tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post4328960474087236892..comments2024-03-12T16:53:52.795-04:00Comments on Crypto-Catholic Libertine: Is the Latin Mass beautiful?Jules Aiméhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08262535377454858987noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post-33425873719717275582013-11-15T14:34:24.889-05:002013-11-15T14:34:24.889-05:00I know, I know, I agree with you, I feel the same ...I know, I know, I agree with you, I feel the same way sometimes. If I become distracted by snow starting to fall or a fly buzzing around am I not being sincere? I think that's part of the paradox of faith, while there's an obvious communal aspect to gathering in Jesus' name, it is also intensely personal and private. I don't know how you measure what's in someone's heart, real faith, real hope, real love, and I don't think the Church really knows either. I think it changes over the course of our lives, sometimes its stronger than other times. Ignatius in the Spiritual Exercises talks about the tug of war between Desolation (hopelessness) and Consolation (hope), I've been told or read that some saints experienced 40 yrs of Desolation, I guess in their writings they expressed feeling alienated from God, almost to the point of despair, or even if there is a God. So what kept them going to Mass every day (the ones who did),and what was their experience of the Mass? Maybe we're asking questions for which there are no answers, or trying to quantify that which can't be quantified. BobinCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07349641483981235572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post-50573887995429479052013-11-15T09:22:22.887-05:002013-11-15T09:22:22.887-05:00"I also don't think we have to earn the r..."I also don't think we have to earn the right to be there, Jesus said whenever two or more are gathered in my name. Real penitence comes from the heart, right?"<br /><br />Well, you tell me. What does it mean for "real penitence to come from the heart"? And what does it mean to show real faith, real hope and real love? Catholic leaders, especially here in North America, have gotten so lax nowadays that no one makes you do anything so we can't rely on the church for guidance in these issues. <br /><br />I go to mass and tell myself that I have faith. How do I know I'm sincere. Do I screw my face up and concentrate really hard as I'm doing it? What makes it real?Jules Aiméhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08262535377454858987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post-84198026730289765022013-11-14T11:27:03.369-05:002013-11-14T11:27:03.369-05:00Ok so you make my point that a priest has to ask f...Ok so you make my point that a priest has to ask for permission to say Mass, say, on a mountain top, or in any setting where there are no or few others present. I think Mass in hospital rooms occurs frequently here, I don't think they have to ask permission, and Masses in peoples' homes as well, but in those settings there are others present along with the Priest. I'm sure that cloistered monks or hermits must have blanket permission to say Mass alone too. I guess maybe its helpful to remember that at the first Mass all the disciples understood Jesus' words, he didn't say them in Latin. I also don't think we have to earn the right to be there, Jesus said whenever two or more are gathered in my name. Real penitence comes from the heart, right? BobinCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07349641483981235572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post-50694030133606735372013-11-13T09:15:08.025-05:002013-11-13T09:15:08.025-05:00Let's start with basics. Christ is the only si...Let's start with basics. Christ is the only sine qua non in the equation. He makes himself present at the mass and he makes this sacrament, as is the case with all sacraments, really happen. Among the human participants, only the priest has a sacerdotal (literally "dare to do the sacrament") role. Where and when a priest may say mass is up to his bishop. Father John Nepil of Colorado, for example, was given permission to say mass on a mountaintop. Bishop sometimes, albeit rarely, grant special permission for a mass to be held in a hospital room.<br /><br />These days mass without the people, but with one server, is not encouraged but you can still see it. One of the places you can see it a lot is in Vatican City.<br /><br />As to the participation issue, it seems to me that the big question is not whether the people should feel that our participation is somehow required (which is pretty vain) but what special efforts can and should we make when participating? Should we prepare ourselves by, just for example, <br /><br />1) reading the collect of the day, which the priest still says for us, ahead of time and making sure that we believe and want what that prayer asks for so it really is our prayer,<br /><br />2) reading the antiphons and readings and thinking deeply about what they mean ahead of time,<br /><br />3) thinking about and make a specific intention for this mass,<br /><br />4) fasting.<br /><br />One thing about the TLM is that it has specific rules for that sort of thing. Nowadays we tend to argue that what comes from the heart is better than following rules by rote. The problem is that, while that sounds good, it tends to become a matter of doing nothing. We think that our heart wants to love but it has to be trained to love.<br /><br />I should add that I am not necessarily advocating a return to the TLM, although I think it should always be available where numbers wanting it warrant it. I do think, however, that we would celebrate the Novus Ordo in a way that was much more genuine and meaningful if we emphasized its continuity with the TLM rather than its discontinuity.Jules Aiméhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08262535377454858987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2696956101824934089.post-56259173834029502462013-11-12T21:20:11.883-05:002013-11-12T21:20:11.883-05:00One thing you seem to be overlooking--but maybe th...One thing you seem to be overlooking--but maybe that's to come next week--is the communal aspect of the Mass, either TLM or Novus Ordo. Some scholars have argued that it is the congregation or the community that makes the Mass--specifically the Consecration--valid. The Latin prayers that people can't understand aren't simply prayers to God that the priest says on behalf of the congregation, but part of an actual dynamic occurrence in which bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ. Further, they argue, the priest--along with the congregation of those assembled--perform the actual Consecration, their mere presence is sufficient. A compelling argument in support of this is the fact that, as I understand it, here in the US if a priest goes on vacation he isn't allowed to say Mass for himself alone in his hotel room, but must seek out a nearby Church if he wants to go to Sunday Mass. So, if the congregation is a necessary and integral part of this process called the Mass, isn't it more appropriate or even necessary that they be able to understand what is being said that accomplishes this transformation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?<br />The other thing is that long before the Novus Ordo came to the English speaking world, the Mass was being celebrated in the vernacular or native language of many countries for decades if not centuries. Even here in the US with the wave of immigration in the 20th C. there were established Polish National Parishes, or Italian Parishes, Lithuanian, in which the Mass was said in those languages, while the English speaking parishes were still saying TLM. So Mass in the vernacular of the country in which it was being said was only a new phenomenon in the English speaking world.BobinCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07349641483981235572noreply@blogger.com